> I believe that because that is an attitude taken primarily in fear; in fear without any justification of previous experience and based primarily in overinflated risks, that do account for the majority of MGTOW videos
Thats it, lets pack it up and go home. This is the gist of my disagreement with the intellectual coddling male "Eat, Pray, Love" that is MGTOW. I have not heard a good response to the "Mistaking the unintelligible for the unintelligent" argument yet.
This is starting down the woe-is-me path. The judgement of other people has always been of limited value. Such is one of the lessons that a young man should pick up early and if he follows the 25/25 prescription he will realize this before age 25.
> Men as a group together are not social butterflies, but they can learn how to be better at it, where I believe learning the basics of red pill philosophy and learning how to socialise will minimise the risk of them getting falsely accused of rape etc. Of course, I am also aware that Anteros is perhaps not talking about those men, but rather the high functioning men who are choosing to stay away from women.
Men are social, we thrive in hierarchies and common goals. This is not the reality for women. One of the prescriptions I make for young men is to join a team sport, preferably a contact sport like football/rugby. I'm sure there are some exceptions to the vast majority of MGTOW, it comes up every time we try to nail down a fact about men just like the "Not me" arguments feminists spout. "What about men at X age?", "Men who have suffered X".
To deal with this exception to the rule tactic we should structure our discussion more. This happens automatically in the IRC channel yet as a general idea the prescription of "Make mistakes when you are young and the stakes are low" holds true. So long as the mistake is not acquiring AIDS or a facial tattoo.
Shame works. I had no idea that MGTOW would react so strongly to childish name calling but now that they have I will use it 3x as often. These "Men" are exposing that they didn't learn the schoolyard lesson of "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me". Instead they flip out and try to share their pain via miscalibrated counter insults about my IQ or Relationship. What a lightning rod. Until they learn this elementary lesson its just going to get worse.
The MGTOW community and I are not equals in the SMP arena, I'd go so far as to say that I've had/have experiences that many of them wish they could and I want them to go out and get those experiences, feminists be damned. If these intelligent young men quit before getting what they wanted, the cat lady barren feminists have won and nobody wants that.
> What is lacking in general in society at present, is contentment within men. Very few men live lives for themselves and very few men do live life without regrets, knowing full well that the paths that they have chosen were the ones they actually wanted.
Yet, at many of the important socialization stages prior he did what he wanted. One of the reasons that men are not content is that they fail to succeed with women, its harder to find discontent within a man who has a strong support structure at home that involves a submissive feminine woman.
Just because we want something does not mean it makes us happy and being happy does not ensure long term success, quite often the hard things in life are the most valuable. Getting on the hedonic treadmill is poisonous for a man and that is exactly what lies in the basement, where MGTOW dwell.
Young women open up their legs to losers all the time. The "play guitar for money" kind of loser, not the basement dwelling loser.
So, the master carpenter with a happy family and an established foundation in the SMP does not have a liberated male spirit? I think he does. We did not nail down exactly what male happiness is in the call (probably deserves its own discussion) here are a few things I think liberates said spirit (not an all-inclusive list) :
The MGTOW mind may have trouble reconciling this with involving those eevil hypergamous women. The TRP mind works to find a way to include it all.
This is important. concepts are not wrong because they come from women (Indeed, all should be examined which is what we're doing here). Old women often espouse RP knowledge without the benefit of internet forums. Women tend to recommend a certain way of life not out of self interest but from examples of what successful (in Work/SMP) men have done. MGTOW redefining the terms of winning to include "whatever makes them happy" is as nonsensical as Eat, Pray, Love was for women.
>When men tell me that they have done their research, they have tried relationships, they just don’t see the point anymore, they simply don’t care what men think of them or what a woman thinks of them, I am more than happy to agree with them.
Intellectualizing again. They're not ready for relationships if the relationships feel like work and pain. "Research" on relationships is just a handy intellectual excuse at this point. He must learn how to manage a relationship through experience/trial & error/etc.. essentially what TRP teaches, a more complete story than the lopsided one that MGTOW presents. We should identify the different advice for different stages of life in the future as Rollo does in his second book Preventative Medicine. If we keep going back and forth about the "advice for young men this" but the "advice for old men that" (Not that I have much) we won't make progress.
At age 40-60 after they've spent years in the basement? This is overly optimistic. I've never heard of this happening and I doubt it is a high percentage of MGTOW. Which brings me to another issue, these are not super alphas who have been sleeping around since grade school and then grow tired of women, these are smart middle class men who are:
Videogames, porn, laziness, over intellectualizing, researching instead of living, avoidance of women (they're already associated them with pain in his mind), equating hobbies with life accomplishments, intellectualized coddling (MGTOW). These are whats telling him not to be productive, not an explicit prescription from the extraordinarily rare super alpha MGTOW.
The capacity for childbirth and biological capacity for child rearing gives women this advantage, as it should since two lives are potentially involved. Equality does not exist for humans. This does indeed suck for afflicted men. Leaving the story there is the disservice of MGTOW.
Agreed, now why don't we include re-socializing in this treatment? Is it because we are buying into the patients idea that they are incapable? because they're ugly? divorced? depressed? The moment we buy into this crap line of thinking is the moment they feel like checking out of the SMP. It feels very nice to have an alternative to the hard re-socializing work that TRP advocates. Hobbies sound much nicer. Poison always sounds nice.
> The red pill suggests a way to own your woman, or to be her master. The MGTOW line of thinking suggests a way to be the master of your own life. If at that point you want to have a woman, you will but it will be on your own terms completely.
These two are not mutually exclusive. There is a lot of overlap since a man being the master of his own life is the first step in him owning his woman. The PUA mistake is changing from the outside in, TRP is changing from the inside out.
They're not proud because their outcomes suck. Not because the concept of male valor sucks. As discussed, part of becoming a great man involves learning how and who to sacrifice for. I'd say that family is a worthy sacrifice, the majority of employed men agree even though they have their own problems.
>In order to do that a man must understand himself first. Once that is done, the path one man chooses to live will change many times. It will likely involve women but not in the traditional sense of relationships and if relationships do occur it will be on his own terms. In order to make a rational choice about women, a man must understand women and judge them for what they really are, not just conceptually but by experience too. A man cannot simply reject his nature and take the easy way out, because that is likely to leave him unfulfilled, which is where your disagreement lies.
Happiness is an amorphous alluring concept, like a carrot at the end of a stick for people. If things go south today and my girl leaves I can (and will) still find joy in the world, if that happens after we have children I'll still have to find a way. I'd survive a divorce and losing access to my child because I've lived life in the way that I have, not because I've intellectualized my way through it.
Men will define themselves no matter what this is a part of becoming a man, just like the important re-socialization work that takes place in his youth. Giving inexperienced or injured men the responsibility of defining masculinity is doing them a disservice. Throw in the shared group sentiment of "Women are bad" and we have a group of self assured basement dwellers avoiding the mating dance.
This is the outcome, not enlightened self-direction built on the shared experience of men who are successful in the sexual marketplace.
For that come here TRP IRC