@Lionsmane8 If you destroy my country, you destroy me too, so how can we be friends?

Carthage fell in 146 BC. The Romans were a bit less merciful than we were.

Rome dismantled the city, led those they did not kill away in chains and sowed the fields with salt. The Carthaginians were great adversaries in a long clash of empires and the Romans didn't want them back. It worked. The next figure that western history really picks up on from the Berber region was St Augustine many years later. He was a bit of a soy boy. He was big on criticising the Roman desire to dominate -libido dominandi. He didn't like dominant nations. His love of peace didn't help though because when Rome fell, it wasn't long before the lands were in other hands -eventually even hands that took the people's very gods.

Was the guilt of the North African whites expiated when Carthage was sacked? when Augustine turned soy? When all history was erased and written new by fresh conquerors? Was it better to conquer or be conquered. Often there is little choice between the two? Which would your children prefer you to have done?

We are living at the end of a time of great prosperity when soy types could say "If the answer is war, the question is very dumb" and not be laughed to scorn and kicked for cowardice. It is better to be strong than a slave. Wrongs are done by strong nations but being weak enough that your children are made the slaves of another people is a greater failure. This talk of the world ever being anything different was just the product of great prosperity -as absurd as feminism or equality legislation.

Of course great nations could do better sometimes and when they do badly it is sad and sometimes even shameful but being no one can walk that line perfectly and all nations operate against the background of the customs of their time. To think you can call in justice on the past by today's standards, is as infantile as the left cancelling history.

If you stop wishing ill on my people, I would be happy to be your friend.

If you want to write the wrongs of history as you see them, then become a great people, conquer and rule better than we did -if you can but its actually a big ask. We ended slavery. We gave people votes. We started you thinking you had any right to want justice at all. Do it then, go and rule. First you must be strong, then fair. And when you come and sack our cities what will you give the 8 million haters of the loot? A fiat coin or two? Some digital money? A square yard of tired farm land each? Some shares in a worked out mine? There's not much to take in retribution these days. You might find you just have to let it go.

@First-light

So your response is "bad west."

No, my response is: bad, very bad, and very, very disgusting and bad West. There is a difference.

The past is past, and I am not "paying" for the "sins" of the past rulers of my land. I have nothing to atone for.

Ah, the classic white female logic: "I’m not the one who stole the goods, so there’s no way I’m returning the loot."

Additionally, your systemic crimes are not a thing of the past, we are witnessing them still.

If you carry on like this, I will struggle to want to care about you and your hatred of me.

You’re still missing the crux of the matter: Justice will be served with or without your consent. This isn’t about me—it’s about us, all 8 billion of us. Do you understand yet? The apology is for you—to atone and integrate with the Global Majority. It’s for your sake. Get it?

I am talking about a civilisation that was utterly deleted by a people who did not mess about or apologise for anything, a civilisation that was gone before the birth of Prophet Isa.

What are you even talking about? Prophet Isa is the Arabic name for Prophet Jesus. Islam emerged around 700 AD, while Christianity began around 0 AD. So, what exactly are you referring to here?

What I was asking was whether its fall expiated the guilt of its descendants?

The fall is inevitable, and the guilt is real.

Either we can be friends, or we are in a feud for what passed between our predecessors. I am happy not to feud.

Of course, we can be friends. Many of my friends are Westerners.

See, our issue isn’t with you as individuals—it’s with you as a system, as a paradigm. For your system to become decent, it needs to be destroyed. Why? Because your system is oppressing you as well.

Our issue is with those who defend, profit from, and uphold the system. You, the lowly serfs, are as much victims as everyone else. It’s the apologists we detest. And in this case of institutionalized lies, murder, and theft, everyone who isn’t explicitly and actively fighting against this systemic monster is, by default, complicit. Silence is tacit consent; it is complicity.

Our issue is with the hypocrisy: "I may not have committed the crimes myself, but I didn’t complain about getting my share of the blood money. Now that the blood money is being stripped away, I feel like bitching."

@Lionsmane8 So your response is "bad west"

When state level apologies (which I whole heartly loathe and are in no way made on my behalf) are made. They are received with "Thank, now how much will you pay us for not having been hurt by any of you"

The past is past and I am not "paying" for the "sins" of the past rulers of my land. I have nothing to atone for. If you carry on like this, I will struggle to want to care about you and your hatred of me.

I know child sacrifice is haram. I am talking about a civilisation that was utterly deleted by a people who did not mess about or apologise for anything, a civilisation that was gone before the birth of prophet Isa. What I was asking was whether its fall, expiated the guilt of its descendants?

You can't have this both ways. Either we can be friends, or we are in feud for what past between our predecessors. I am happy not to feud. But if you want to feud, I will not extend the hand of friendship to you with an apology for what I never did, while you sharpen your knives for me and my people.

@First-light

Let’s dissect your elegant attempt at dodging accountability:

How is this common guilt that you propose ever to be expiated?

I cannot speak for the entirety of what is now called "the Global South." However, each region—Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners, etc.—has its own grievances to settle with the West, either as a whole or in part (e.g., Indians with the British, Africans with the French, Iraqis with the Americans, etc.).

The methods of addressing these grievances are already being proposed by individuals in higher positions than mine. For instance, some advocate for annual GDP deductions to account for the economic destruction and losses endured due to Western exploitation, the return of looted artifacts, such as those taken from Egypt etc.

The gesture, however, is what truly matters. It could begin with a formal state-level apology. You’ll find that people are generally merciful and forgiving when genuine efforts are made to right past wrongs.

Most importantly, the wrongdoing must cease. Western barbarity is not confined to history books; it is unfolding before our eyes as we speak. STOP SINNING!

When you in turn rule us? It sounds like guilt can only be expiated by more guilt?

Who is "us"? I believe you’re framing this incorrectly, turning it into a Muslim versus Pagan issue (you are not Christians, not at all). Refer back to my earlier points. As far as Muslims are concerned, history shows we have been far more merciful and better custodians of power than the West ever was (e.g., Salahuddin, the early Caliphates, Muslim Spain, etc.).

If such a dynamic arises again, a system of accountability must be established and enforced. The most legitimate framework currently available is INTERNATIONAL LAW, which the West and its allies have consistently disregarded and undermined.

You want to see the West destroyed because of a common guilt.

The decline of the West is inevitable. That trajectory was set in stone decades ago, and we are now witnessing its final stages. As for whether the destruction of the West is a good or bad thing? Given your history—especially your recent history and present actions—the best thing that could happen to this world is for the West to be reduced to ashes. Only then can it be reborn into something better, or at least more palatable. So yes, like billions of others, I will cheer that on.

It almost feels like this goes back to revenge for "delenda est Carthago."

Again, let’s focus on the present and recent history: the Western-sponsored genocide in Gaza, the continuous exploitation of the Congo, regime change operations globally, the Western-backed war in Ukraine (a Slavic genocide), the IMF’s predatory practices, the Iraq War, the destruction of Libya, the destabilization of Syria, and so on.

You too ruled once. You were not too popular either. They said your penchant for child sacrifice was a bit worrying.

The claim of child sacrifice is utter nonsense and is expressly prohibited in Islam. Islam emerged in the Arabian Peninsula and immediately eradicated idol worship and ritual child sacrifice practiced by pre-Islamic pagan tribes. The story of Ibrahim (Abraham) in Islamic tradition explicitly condemns child sacrifice.

"Lost indeed are those who have murdered their own children foolishly out of ignorance and have forbidden what Allah has provided for them—falsely attributing lies to Allah. They have certainly strayed and are not rightly guided." (Quran 6:140)

Where did you even get this nonsense? It is beyond haram.

Once again, you’re framing this as an Islam-versus-West issue. It is not. This is a Humanity-versus-West issue.

Was your guilt expiated when the salt was sown in your fields? Did it linger till Saint Augustine rose from among your number to teach that Rome's libido dominandi that had made her great was actually a sin not just virtus in action? Was it only finally expiated when Islam came and commanded your very souls to be believers, erasing your earlier faith? When was your common guilt for being great erased? When was your debt paid?

This is just meaningless bla bla — no substance here.

Otherwise one tends to sympathize with Cato's view—what other option did he have?

This is precisely the Western attitude. It proves my point: you have never grown, never changed. You remain the same sodomy-loving, pretentious, greedy, violent, barbaric, and hypocritical entities you were in antiquity.

But in the spirit of Ramadan, I am supposed to extend a fig leaf. Only Islam can save the West. I invite you to open your heart and mind to it and learn. It is your salvation.

mearsheimer.substack.com/p/the-moral-bankruptcy-of-the-west

neutralitystudies.com/2024/05/the-west-vs-the-rest/